Hi, y'all -

The RNAV (GPS) RWY 18R into KHSV

http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0411/05488R18R.PDF

has a transition route from RQZ VORTAC to an IAF, HATAS. The transition
route is bearing 322 degrees, 2.1 miles. There is a note "Procedure NA for
arrivals at RQZ VORTAC on Airway Radials 261 CW 010". There is an airway at
RQZ on radial 261 and one on radial 010, nothing in between. The note
specifies a prohibited arrival sector, but also implies that the prohibition
applies only applies if arrival is on an airway. I don't understand the
reason for the word "airway" in the note. Anyone have a clue?

Also, how would one fly this approach in a nonradar situation, given an
arrival on one of the two airways? Would one give a position report and
request direct HATAS when a few miles from RQZ? One might have to be at a
higher altitude to make an uncharted off-route transition. I believe the
MVA in that area is 3000; can ATC apply MVAs in nonradar conditions?

Stan

It is presumed you'll be arriving via airways to begin an instrument approach
procedure in a non-radar environment. If ATC has you on radar and wants to
clear you direct to a feeder fix or IAF on an RNAV IAP, then that action
supercedes those types of notes.

The reason for the note is to enforce the 120 course change limitation after a
feeder fix or IAF. Those limitations have always been in TERPs, but the FAA
didn't chart such restrictions until within the past couple of years.

Stan Prevost wrote:

> Hi, y'all -
>
> The RNAV (GPS) RWY 18R into KHSV
>
> http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0411/05488R18R.PDF
>
> has a transition route from RQZ VORTAC to an IAF, HATAS. The transition
> route is bearing 322 degrees, 2.1 miles. There is a note "Procedure NA for
> arrivals at RQZ VORTAC on Airway Radials 261 CW 010". There is an airway at
> RQZ on radial 261 and one on radial 010, nothing in between. The note
> specifies a prohibited arrival sector, but also implies that the prohibition
> applies only applies if arrival is on an airway. I don't understand the
> reason for the word "airway" in the note. Anyone have a clue?
>
> Also, how would one fly this approach in a nonradar situation, given an
> arrival on one of the two airways? Would one give a position report and
> request direct HATAS when a few miles from RQZ? One might have to be at a
> higher altitude to make an uncharted off-route transition. I believe the
> MVA in that area is 3000; can ATC apply MVAs in nonradar conditions?
>
> Stan

> wrote in message ...
> It is presumed you'll be arriving via airways to begin an instrument
> approach
> procedure in a non-radar environment. If ATC has you on radar and wants
> to
> clear you direct to a feeder fix or IAF on an RNAV IAP, then that action
> supercedes those types of notes.
>

Thanks. But what about nonradar? If I arrive via one of the two airways in
the prohibited sector, how do I get to the IAF?

>> Also, how would one fly this approach in a nonradar situation, given an
>> arrival on one of the two airways? Would one give a position report and
>> request direct HATAS when a few miles from RQZ? One might have to be at
>> a
>> higher altitude to make an uncharted off-route transition. I believe the
>> MVA in that area is 3000; can ATC apply MVAs in nonradar conditions?

>> http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0411/05488R18R.PDF

Stan Prevost wrote:

> > wrote in message ...
> > It is presumed you'll be arriving via airways to begin an instrument
> > approach
> > procedure in a non-radar environment. If ATC has you on radar and wants
> > to
> > clear you direct to a feeder fix or IAF on an RNAV IAP, then that action
> > supercedes those types of notes.
> >
>
> Thanks. But what about nonradar? If I arrive via one of the two airways in
> the prohibited sector, how do I get to the IAF?

I'm just the messenger. ;-)

Tim is absolutely correct regarding the 120 degree turn.
As for non-radar entry, you could file for airways to ELKED for the
procedure, since that turn from the airway does not exceed 120 degrees,
or arrive at ROCKET on other than those 2 airway radials.
As for the wording, it probably should have been "Procedure NA for
arrivals at RQZ VORTAC via V-xxx Eastbound and V-XXX Southbound", rather
than the phrase used, which would have made more sense if there was more
than the 2 airways within that spread.

JPH

wrote:

> It is presumed you'll be arriving via airways to begin an instrument approach
> procedure in a non-radar environment. If ATC has you on radar and wants to
> clear you direct to a feeder fix or IAF on an RNAV IAP, then that action
> supercedes those types of notes.
>
> The reason for the note is to enforce the 120 course change limitation after a
> feeder fix or IAF. Those limitations have always been in TERPs, but the FAA
> didn't chart such restrictions until within the past couple of years.
>
> Stan Prevost wrote:
>
>
>>Hi, y'all -
>>
>>The RNAV (GPS) RWY 18R into KHSV
>>
>>http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0411/05488R18R.PDF
>>
>>has a transition route from RQZ VORTAC to an IAF, HATAS. The transition
>>route is bearing 322 degrees, 2.1 miles. There is a note "Procedure NA for
>>arrivals at RQZ VORTAC on Airway Radials 261 CW 010". There is an airway at
>>RQZ on radial 261 and one on radial 010, nothing in between. The note
>>specifies a prohibited arrival sector, but also implies that the prohibition
>>applies only applies if arrival is on an airway. I don't understand the
>>reason for the word "airway" in the note. Anyone have a clue?
>>
>>Also, how would one fly this approach in a nonradar situation, given an
>>arrival on one of the two airways? Would one give a position report and
>>request direct HATAS when a few miles from RQZ? One might have to be at a
>>higher altitude to make an uncharted off-route transition. I believe the
>>MVA in that area is 3000; can ATC apply MVAs in nonradar conditions?
>>
>>Stan
>
>

"J Haggerty" > wrote in message
news:TvCid.98487$tU4.22080@okepread06...
> Tim is absolutely correct regarding the 120 degree turn.
> As for non-radar entry, you could file for airways to ELKED for the
> procedure, since that turn from the airway does not exceed 120 degrees, or
> arrive at ROCKET on other than those 2 airway radials.
> As for the wording, it probably should have been "Procedure NA for
> arrivals at RQZ VORTAC via V-xxx Eastbound and V-XXX Southbound", rather
> than the phrase used, which would have made more sense if there was more
> than the 2 airways within that spread.
>
> JPH
>

Yes, I understand about the 120 degree turns, and agree that ELKED is
viable, as it is an enroute waypoint on an airway, and the turn from there
is only about 90 degrees. And your comment about the note supports my
suspicion that it was just unskillfully worded.

But what I am really still wondering about is not a TERPs issue but an ATC
issue in a nonradar situation. If for whatever reason I was arriving on
the airway from the northeast, if I flew all the way to the VOR, then the
procedure is NA because of the large turn. However, if about 5 miles from
the VOR on the airway, I gave a position report and requested direct HATAS,
could ATC give me an unpublished off-airways route for the 5 miles or less
to HATAS if I was at or above their MVA in that area. I observe that the
note says "Procedure NA for arrivals **AT** RQZ...". I am trying to
determine if the prohibition can be overcome by not arriving AT the VOR but
leaving the airway before reaching the VOR so that the turn will be less.

Stan

> wrote:
>
>> It is presumed you'll be arriving via airways to begin an instrument
>> approach
>> procedure in a non-radar environment. If ATC has you on radar and wants
>> to
>> clear you direct to a feeder fix or IAF on an RNAV IAP, then that action
>> supercedes those types of notes.
>>
>> The reason for the note is to enforce the 120 course change limitation
>> after a
>> feeder fix or IAF. Those limitations have always been in TERPs, but the
>> FAA
>> didn't chart such restrictions until within the past couple of years.
>>
>> Stan Prevost wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hi, y'all -
>>>
>>>The RNAV (GPS) RWY 18R into KHSV
>>>
>>>http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0411/05488R18R.PDF
>>>
>>>has a transition route from RQZ VORTAC to an IAF, HATAS. The transition
>>>route is bearing 322 degrees, 2.1 miles. There is a note "Procedure NA
>>>for
>>>arrivals at RQZ VORTAC on Airway Radials 261 CW 010". There is an airway
>>>at
>>>RQZ on radial 261 and one on radial 010, nothing in between. The note
>>>specifies a prohibited arrival sector, but also implies that the
>>>prohibition
>>>applies only applies if arrival is on an airway. I don't understand the
>>>reason for the word "airway" in the note. Anyone have a clue?
>>>
>>>Also, how would one fly this approach in a nonradar situation, given an
>>>arrival on one of the two airways? Would one give a position report and
>>>request direct HATAS when a few miles from RQZ? One might have to be at
>>>a
>>>higher altitude to make an uncharted off-route transition. I believe the
>>>MVA in that area is 3000; can ATC apply MVAs in nonradar conditions?
>>>
>>>Stan
>>

I never say never about how controllers do things, but generally they won't use
MVAs (TRACONS) or MIAs (centers) if they cannot see you on radar.

Stan Prevost wrote:

> "J Haggerty" > wrote in message
> news:TvCid.98487$tU4.22080@okepread06...
> > Tim is absolutely correct regarding the 120 degree turn.
> > As for non-radar entry, you could file for airways to ELKED for the
> > procedure, since that turn from the airway does not exceed 120 degrees, or
> > arrive at ROCKET on other than those 2 airway radials.
> > As for the wording, it probably should have been "Procedure NA for
> > arrivals at RQZ VORTAC via V-xxx Eastbound and V-XXX Southbound", rather
> > than the phrase used, which would have made more sense if there was more
> > than the 2 airways within that spread.
> >
> > JPH
> >
>
> Yes, I understand about the 120 degree turns, and agree that ELKED is
> viable, as it is an enroute waypoint on an airway, and the turn from there
> is only about 90 degrees. And your comment about the note supports my
> suspicion that it was just unskillfully worded.
>
> But what I am really still wondering about is not a TERPs issue but an ATC
> issue in a nonradar situation. If for whatever reason I was arriving on
> the airway from the northeast, if I flew all the way to the VOR, then the
> procedure is NA because of the large turn. However, if about 5 miles from
> the VOR on the airway, I gave a position report and requested direct HATAS,
> could ATC give me an unpublished off-airways route for the 5 miles or less
> to HATAS if I was at or above their MVA in that area. I observe that the
> note says "Procedure NA for arrivals **AT** RQZ...". I am trying to
> determine if the prohibition can be overcome by not arriving AT the VOR but
> leaving the airway before reaching the VOR so that the turn will be less.
>
> Stan
>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> It is presumed you'll be arriving via airways to begin an instrument
> >> approach
> >> procedure in a non-radar environment. If ATC has you on radar and wants
> >> to
> >> clear you direct to a feeder fix or IAF on an RNAV IAP, then that action
> >> supercedes those types of notes.
> >>
> >> The reason for the note is to enforce the 120 course change limitation
> >> after a
> >> feeder fix or IAF. Those limitations have always been in TERPs, but the
> >> FAA
> >> didn't chart such restrictions until within the past couple of years.
> >>
> >> Stan Prevost wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Hi, y'all -
> >>>
> >>>The RNAV (GPS) RWY 18R into KHSV
> >>>
> >>>http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0411/05488R18R.PDF
> >>>
> >>>has a transition route from RQZ VORTAC to an IAF, HATAS. The transition
> >>>route is bearing 322 degrees, 2.1 miles. There is a note "Procedure NA
> >>>for
> >>>arrivals at RQZ VORTAC on Airway Radials 261 CW 010". There is an airway
> >>>at
> >>>RQZ on radial 261 and one on radial 010, nothing in between. The note
> >>>specifies a prohibited arrival sector, but also implies that the
> >>>prohibition
> >>>applies only applies if arrival is on an airway. I don't understand the
> >>>reason for the word "airway" in the note. Anyone have a clue?
> >>>
> >>>Also, how would one fly this approach in a nonradar situation, given an
> >>>arrival on one of the two airways? Would one give a position report and
> >>>request direct HATAS when a few miles from RQZ? One might have to be at
> >>>a
> >>>higher altitude to make an uncharted off-route transition. I believe the
> >>>MVA in that area is 3000; can ATC apply MVAs in nonradar conditions?
> >>>
> >>>Stan
> >>